Encounters with Mark Noonan

Your post below about your visit to www.blogsforbush.com inspired me to go take another look. When I got there, a post by your beloved Mr. Noonan was on top.

I posted a comment or three. Here's how the exchange went:

His original post:

As sure as the sun rises in the east, we can count upon our leftists to be, well, ever increasingly vulgar as time goes on. The latest example of this is from NARAL:

This is an advertisement for NARAL's "screw abstinence" party - an event designed to raise funds for NARAL's programs to "secure comprehensive and medically accurate sex education" for all and sundry...and I guess "comprehensive" for NARAL doesn't include the fact that the only 100% effective means of preventing pregnancy and STD's is, well, abstinence.

When our Democratic friends wonder why they get shellacked at the polls on the issue of moral values, they've really no further to look than NARAL and similar groups. This is meant as an insult to everyone who disagrees with their views - and the insult does get noted. NARAL is not so much defending its views on the matter of sexual education, but insulting everyone who holds a different view. What, really, would be wrong with a sex education program which includes an element of abstinence? Nothing that any rational person can see...but NARAL goes into fits whenever anyone mentions the word "abstinence".

The historian Will Durant, writing of the decadance of ancient Rome, described this NARAL attitude (which is prevelant in the political left) as "a shallow sophistication which prides itself on childlessness and despair". For NARAL, sex is for gratification and nothing more - an animal action disconnected from anything higher than momentary physical pleasure. Others disagree - and as those who disagree are not into childlessness and despair, the future looks bright.

My first comment:

I guess you all would rather argue with a strawman than take a look around.

Here is NARAL's page about proper Sex Education.

http://www.wanaral.org/s09issues/200307082.shtml

Note that they support a comprehensive sex education that includes teaching both abstinence and contraception.

The key parts:

"Sex education programs discussing both abstinence and contraception have been proven to increase knowledge, delay the onset of sex, reduce the frequency of sex, and increase contraceptive use."

"Research by the National Campaign to Prevent Teen Pregnancy in 2004 shows: “To date, six studies of abstinence-only programs have been published. None of these studies has found consistent and significant program effects on delaying the onset of intercourse, and at least one study provided strong evidence that the program did not delay the onset of intercourse.”"

His response:

Reece,

Michael said it pretty well - I'll only add, also, that you don't gain converts to your cause by using insulting terms like this.

It must be faced that the pro-abortion lobby, of which NARAL is a leading part, is contemptuous of traditional morals...they are part and parcel with that bizarre leftwing thinking which holds that while can talk kids into not smoking, we can't talk them into not having sex.

My Response:

Mark,

Where was I being insulting? If I was, it was unintended, but calling a strawman argument a strawman argument is not insulting.

And your argument was a strawman: Your claim was that NARAL is against sex education that contains abstinence. That is an easy target to attack because no one agrees with it--including NARAL.

That's the definition of a strawman argument:
http://www.fallacyfiles.org/strawman.html

You didn't attack NARAL's position. You mistated there position as seeing something "wrong with a sex education program which includes an element of abstinence."

They don't. They want comprehensive sex education which includes both abstinence and contraceptive information. In fact, that is your implied position: "What would be wrong with a sex education program which includes an element of abstinence?" The inference is that nothing would be wrong with it. NARAL agrees.

Mark, I guess the 2/3 of Americans who think Roe v. Wade shouldn't be overturned are against traditional values too? Or the 4/5 of us who think abortion should remain legal in at least some circumstances?

His response:

Reece,

What straw man argument? What you are attempting to do here is do what liberal/left posters always attempt to do - change the subject when caught.

The subject of this thread is the insult offered by NARAL to traditional morals via their "Screw Abstinence" party...other issues may be wrapped up in this, but what you are desperately trying to do is a debator's trick of pulling away from your weakest point and trying to cloud the issue...you don't want anyone talking about the disgusting insult offered by NARAL; you'd much prefer we engage you in your pointless debate about whether or not the National Abortion Rights Action League favors or opposes abstinence education...who the f*** cares if they support it or not? Their attitude about it ("screw abstinence", eg) says more about it than platitudes offered about how abstinence can be part of a sex education program...and we know, additionally, from reading up on NARAL that, at best, they give a bit of lip service to abstinence before they go right into a demand for graphic, amoral sex education and advocacy of the really sick and disgusting platform of federally funded abortion on demand.

My response:

Mark, what are you talking about? I pointed out your strawman argument. I don't really feel like repeating myself.

"What, really, would be wrong with a sex education program which includes an element of abstinence? Nothing that any rational person can see...but NARAL goes into fits whenever anyone mentions the word "abstinence"."

You agree with NARAL. NARAL agrees with you. They haven't gone 'into fits.'

Your point was that since NARAL is against abstinence, people don't vote for Democrats in elections.

"When our Democratic friends wonder why they get shellacked at the polls on the issue of moral values, they've really no further to look than NARAL and similar groups."

But NARAL isn't against abstinence. They are against abstinence only sex ed.

What's the problem here? You created a problem by assigning to NARAL a position that the group does not hold.

So, in short, you care if they support it or not. Or at least cared enough to post that they did not support it.

Now I am changing the subject:

Disgusting insult? I didn't realize people had to be so PC around you conservatives. I'm sure someone will let the fine people at NARAL know that you have been offended.

Well, before I get banned, I'm out. See you all next month. Or not.

Well, that's it. What can you do with these people?